And then my, since then my life got better. And I just had to get back on the right track. So my parents put a lot, they’d always put a lot of investment in my career. So they invested a lot of time in me to try and sort out my career. So I think that’s what’s helped. I moved house again. And I moved in with some very nice house mates and that helped. And my Mum also helped me with my appearance. So I had to be taught how to dress well. I had to wash. Stuff like that. I was like a baby again. I had to be parented again. And then the areaSo basically I got my career back on track. I lost another job while I was in recovery, because I was adamant I would go straight back to work, because I’d be, because I lost my job I was off work for a year, while I was ill, before I was diagnosed. So I was just running about the place, like trying to bug friends on their lunch breaks, and stuff like that. Just, God knows what I was doing. I did some work experience, I did a course, stuff like that. But I was just bumming about basically. And when I was getting better I lost another job. And then finally I started contracting which really suits me, because you do short term contracts. And also by that time in my career, I learnt enough skills to hold down a job. Because my career, my chosen career I was sort of launched in at the deep end, because I didn’t do a vocational degree. So it was very difficult for me to concentrate. And some of symptoms are difficulty in concentrating, difficulty in following things through, so all the type of things that you need to be a professional in business. It was very difficult.

And yes, the one area that I’m still trying to fix is about relationships, friendships, because when I was ill, I was basically left with no friends. No one wanted to come near me. Everyone either had, I don’t know, thinking about it, may be they had a stigma. I had a stigma because I was concerned about it myself, but I was so worried about being diagnosed and labelled that I didn’t go and get the help that I needed early enough. Because looking back I should have gone to get help, what, ten years before, for depression, but I never did. I never got the help that I needed. And I can’t say that for ten years I was suffering, because I wasn’t. I having the time of my life, but I was being reckless, I was overspending, just things like that. And, people who knew me slowly drifted away, and I was not making new friends. So when I was actually diagnosed, I was, basically had no like [inhales] now, I see myself, I’m back to where I was before, but I’m much more wise, I’m much self reliant, and have confidence in myself, but I think I’ve got this ideology that friends let you down. Because when I needed them most, at my time of, my hour of need, no one was there for me. But my family was there for me, but no one else was, and yeah that was really difficult.

I’m wondering as we are starting to talk a little bit about recovery? What does that mean to you?

Oh it’s so precious. It is such a precious thing. Recovery to me means that I don’t have overwhelming symptoms. That I’m able to function. Recovery to me means that I’m in the community and not in hospital. You know when I am in hospital I am desperately unwell. And anything, that is better than that, is recovery as far as I’m concerned. I don’t have, what some people would regard as a full life. I have a happy life, even though I haven’t got two beans to rub together, but, you know, that’s the way it goes. And that’s it. I mean I can’t work but it doesn’t mean that I don’t have fulfilled or useful life, and that’s taken me a long time to accept and come to terms with and I think since I have done that, you know, I’m not going to change the world on my own. I’m not going to have a high powered job. I’m probably not going to have any job of any description, but what I do have is a wealth of experience. It may not be in an area that is to everybody’s taste, but you know, it, it can be useful. And, and it has been incredibly useful in helping my partner. And I did find, you know, having access to Rethink, just that incredible relief of knowing that you are not on your own, you know, that there are thousands and thousands of people who suffer the same way. Yes. And I think also, I mean recovery means you have to take some practical steps. I mean on the news I will listen to a bulletin any day, rather than reading the newspaper, watching the news, and keeping in current affairs, because basically it’s the same old, same old thing. You know, and as you get older you do kind of realise that. You know, the world turns [laughs]. And we’ve seen it all before. You know. And try not to get too worried about it. Because I think one of the very common things with anxiety in particular, is awfulisation, catastrophisation, where you think that the worst is going to happen. And that just isn’t going to happen, you know, it’s not going[intake of breath]. Mindfulness has been very, very useful. Because what I find happens to me particularly if I’m stressed is this constant whirring for what’s going round and round and round and round in my head, all the time. Getting worse and worse and worse and worse and it fuels anxiety and to the point where you can begin to feel physically quite uncomfortable, and its learning what the cut off point is, you know, beyond which you are not going to go, and you put a stop on it, and that’s been really, really excellent. Yes. And I think the other thing as well is, realising that as you do get older, you do get stronger. Your resilience against it does grow as time goes on. Particularly if you’re fortunate enough to have periods of time when you are not psychotic. It doesn’t mean that you won’t have the symptoms of anxiety or depression or the huger mood swings that you can get. But that becomes within the bounds of what is normal for you. And it becomes acceptable and I think the more you can find out about the condition you have, the more you understand it, and the less frightening it is. And I would recommend organisations like Rethink. They have some fantastic information. Because sometimes, you know, the medical profession, they don’t know everything. You know, they don’t. And the psychiatrist will be well versed in medication and another nurse will be well versed in talking therapies. So this kind of thing. What you need is a kind of broad spectrum approach, and just grab anything that’s going. Yes.

And for example, you know the Hearing Voices Movement has been going on for quite a while. You know, it started off in Holland. And basically when… they did one of the things they say is, it’s your voices are always telling… are always, are always messengers basically about your, the state of your mind, your state of your life, your state of your soul. And you should listen to them really. See what are they, what are they saying to you. And why are they saying this to you. And it was only like, because I remember one of the exercises was write down [3 sec pause] what the voices are saying to you. So I did write them down, and you know, funnily enough, just a couple of days lat later, I had my Dad to say those exact same things to me. And I sort put of two, you know, kind of put two and two together, and thought, you know. And once I kind of understood that, it was, it had some kind of link to my past. I felt I had more control over it. But it wasn’t, it wasn’t kind of a, you know, an ambiguous, you know, mess that I couldn’t hold on to. I could see that, basically I could see the logic in it.

So it works?

Yes. So… no as I say, it’s stuff like just saying my Dad isn’t a happy man. He’s very, very unhappy. So, you know, he’s telling himself these things as well. And look what it’s done to him. Do I, and basically I said to myself, do I have to listen to that. Why am I listening to that? Why am I taking it as truth. So… it was kind of understanding that, what the, just to see. How I could change my thinking and how I could control the emotion, the emotions that were, that were quite negative at the time. And basically not in a kind of critical way, because I unders I also understand, you know, if you’re critical about yourself. That’s actually counter productive. Just to see that you’re, to have kind of compassion for yourself and realise you’re doing the best you can. And as long as you do one thing positive in your life, you’re doing the right thing basically. Not to be kind of hard on yourself. So that, it was, like many, many kind of strands just coming together, and just, you know, over the space of a few years. Just having that self belief you know to write, and then submitting it to publishers and getting it published, gave me more confidence, so I would, I would because I was also writing poetry and said well may be I can perform my poetry. And people said, Don’t be so stupid Dolly. You know, you’ve got social phobia remember? And I said, Well I won’t know until I try. So and it’s funny always, it’s, you know, I don’t know if it’s true of everyone, but when I need a certain person in my life, they arrive on the scene. So I met this Dutc.. well British poet, but he lived in Holland. And he got, he said, Come to Holland and perform some poetry. I said, I haven’t done it before. And he said, So? So I went over there, you know, and before I performed my poetry I was really scared. I wanted to come home. But he literally, he’s a big guy, he lifted me up and threw me on the stage and said, Perform. And I did perform and I loved it actually.

Oh fantastic.

Yes. So, there’s the having a bit more confidence. That really helps and actually forgiving my Dad was the biggest, I think the biggest positive impact that had on my kind of life. Because I realised he owned my life, I didn’t forgive him… Because I remember somebody saying this to me, and it’s always stuck in my head, is, If you’re bitter about something, you’re poisoning yourself and hoping the other person is going to getill from it. But you’re doing the poisoning to yourself. So understanding you know, being bitter about things is actually poisonous to the soul. Hating somebody is you’re not, you know, you’ve given the power to that person you hate. Not that you don’t own it. Yes, it’s a very kind of slow process of lots of things. Actually what I think it is, it’s just a slow process of learning how to be human. But as kind of really helps, helps me. Not seeing that, you know, the psychosis as you know, a kind of symptom or illness that can only be medicated. But to see that it’s actually part of being human.

I think, recovery is a very unfortunate word. I wish they’d chosen a different word because it causes such offence to people who don’t believe they will ever, if you like, get better again and there’s a misinterpretation about what recovery means. I think what is inspiring is saying that we all have our own journey to make and our own interpretation to make about what illness is. I think that’s really, really good. That’s liberating and allows us, especially with unconventional thoughts to feel secure in our thoughts and have then seen as valid and to look at our strengths and what we can bring to the world instead of looking always at the failure and the impairment is really good. Where I think it goes wrong is that it sometimes substitutes itself as being the voice for all users. Which I think is wrong. I don’t think it is and sometimes I think it becomes almost, almost a religion. If you don’t belief in recovery then you’re just misguided. You can’t have a valid disagreement with recovery. Everyone in mental health has to believe in recovery. But in many ways it’s a very diffuse subject. When you start talking about the recovery model of the design of a building you’re being really stupid because it just means what improves mental health and just saying recovery model is just rubbish. And there are too many people have a value base around recovery that says the only way to recovery is certain models like getting into employment or believing in this or being free of medication or whatever, which is a judgmental, patronising way of saying people should speak. There are people who have hardened themselves. What I think is wonderful about people with mental health problems speaking out is that we have a vast range of opinions and all of them are valid. From those people who believe medication and ECT is a life saving vital treatment to those people who believing sectioning is the greatest infringement of human rights, and there’s a vitality and breadth of wonderfulness is every one expressing those things which is great. And sometimes people who are caught in recovery think that there’s one way of thinking and if you don’t think that way, then you’re misguided, you haven’t educated yourself enough and if you just listen to the disciples of recovery you would have a guided sensible view. And that I find is really offensive. What I think is wonderful is giving that belief into people having a sense of their own journey and a sense of their own strength and a sense of their own worth. That’s, that’s where it should settle. Rather than thinking it’s concerned with everything else. And I think, you know, when services start talking about recovery focus that’s fine. But often it’s just a bit of a gloss. And everyone says, recovery, they say recovery without even thinking what it means sometimes. I found that quite offensive, because it’s just taken over. it’s become, I hate the word political correctness because it’s such a stupid thing, but it’s become a dogma and that’s really, really annoying because it’s a wonderful, wonderful liberating concept which is in danger of distorting voices and not voices to be heard, just in case they don’t agree with the concept.

I guess we, we share a vision and a dream of being redundant in Mental Health and that’s, that’s our vision. we share a passion for recovery, we both work with people one-to-one and we enjoy that that’s probably the, the thing gives me the most satisfaction. I enjoy people recovering, and I get a buzz out of seeing people reclaim their life and, suss it out and work out that they can do something and then doing it. I’m always amazed at the process of that, that, that there seems to be this bit, you’re, you’re running ahead and you’re getting on great and then it’s almost like you need to go back to the system to check it out again and that actually that now is just part of the journey, and so when it happens I don’t worry about it I just say [dismissive noise], Well they’ll get through it And I’ve saw many people do that and I did it myself so, I guess I, I think since ninety-three I, I’m seventeen years now without medication and I guess that twice in, in the last twelve years I’ve went to my GP feeling really down and twice my Gps given me a packet of anti-depressants and twice I’ve went back and looked at them and put them in the medicine cupboard and never ever opened them, , [pause 3 seconds] because I think I’ve realised that those times when I, I did go on them, I was down, it was just a normal response to living it wasn’t illness, it was, it was just a normal response to what was going on in my life at the time. Yeah.

And would that be a similar attitude towards your voices or is it different?

Nah it’s the same with voices they’re just there they’re part of who I am and that, that, that, I guess that’s the thing I’ve discovered, I’ve discovered who I am and I’m comfortable with who I am now. Although I still have my moments, you know, like everybody where I go through and I, struggle with how I’m feeling about things and, you know, but that’s not illness that’s living.

To be honest, honest with you Laura I don’t get involved in that much in recovery because I think its wrong why are we telling people how to recover? That’s, and it, it’s a bone of contention with me, it’s fantastic that people are recovering but, as a society, we don’t learn from history and if you don’t learn from history you will never progress. And what my argument is man has recovered from all sorts of things since he walked this planet, how? Because man has got a capacity to recover what he needs is love and compassion and guidance, we don’t need tools for recovery, we don’t need models for recovery, if somebody had a model for recovery, oh my God what a waste of time, or you don’t fit this model so it’s your fault you’re not recovering, you’re drug resistant, you’re non-compliant, you’re not trying because this model works we’ve done it on forty people, come on, how many people go to the Mental Health Services and I think the problem is, because man has always recovered, by it’s own capacity to recover, we’re turning recovery into a science it has been hijacked by the services, this is why we’ve got to do it, this is measured outcomes, crap absolute waste of time, but it’s good that people are focussing on recovery, that’s the positive thing, but to me I have a framework and this is what I work with clients in Denmark with and the, a framework is something that has to be , adaptable, can bend and bow to suit everyone’s needs. Now if you want to work on something so that people can see the recovery scrap your models it’s a square peg round hole, I think. But what I use is I was a tree, but the tree’s symbolic, now the roots are safe housing, if someone is not safe you will not recover, it is an impossibility seventy percent of the homeless are mentally ill and we have to look at why that is, because we have dumping grounds for the mentally ill, we discharge them from acute services, maybe blunted in expression, acting bizarre, like a bit unkempt and we’ve put them on crap housing estates and people think it’s funny to take the piss, they call them names, they throw things at them, they draw on, draw on the windows, put dog shite through the letterbox, I know because I was that person I don’t care how good a therapist is, you can work with a person, you send them back to that environment you’re wasting your time, it’s the government issue that has got to be addressed, it’s an international crisis what is happening with the mentally ill. So we have to start with safe housing, and then, especially around paranoia and hearing voices, I know recovery’s a big thing it encompasses a lot of things but I’m just focussing on those two. I see the trunk as being the trunk support, now what will I will say to someone is let’s look at who you can use outside the statutory and voluntary sector’ because you can’t possibly rely on them for the rest of your life. So ask them to try and identify two or three people they will identify in a crisis. Then you record them on the trunk, and the branches are about achievable goals, now let’s say someone’s been socially isolated through voices and paranoia for a period of three months, and then you get them to go to the corner shop or into the garden that is their recovery. But I get on the, on the leaf I put the time and the date. And then when you perhaps progress more on, further in their recovery because you can’t define someone’s recovery we put the time and the date, then after a period of twelve months or six months if a person says, My life’s not improving. Yes it is this is where you were, now look at where you are. Well, after that session, each session you have to refers to hold the back, and I, Do you still feel safe? Hasanybody moved in? Have you been victimised? You’ve got to keep checking all the time but it’s good for the worker as well to see. Who sort of say this is how you’ve got to recover after. We’re play a dangerous game, we’re setting people up to fail basically, you know, people, I know there’s people out there they’ll say you can’t be recovered unless you come off your drugs I don’t agree with that, I’m not anti-medication, I think it’s a working tool it won’t cure but if someone goes from twenty milligrams of Olanzapine to five, and they’re happy to stay on that, and live their life on that, why should we define, why should we define that that’s their recovery? It’s the, it should be their definition and what recovery is not telling people.