Can you talk a bit about what’s been most beneficial for you in terms of support or things that you’ve done that have, you know, helped you pull yourself up, up out of the depression?

Def, definitely family support. we – I have an older sister and a younger sister, there’s about two, two years between each of us. And ah my family know, as I say and I still have the bad habit of going into hiding when I’m not travelling so well. But they now, they now know that and Mum’ll say things like, you know, she’ll, you know, she might ring up one day, how you going Paul? And oh yeah, yeah and then she might ring back a few days later and she’ll say how are you and then she’ll say what time are you home today? I am coming around. I say what do you mean you’re coming around? She says I know you’re not well. I want to come and see you. And you just don’t say no to mum.

You know I have, you know, I couldn’t measure the amount of respect I have for all my family. And ah and I know what she’s doing and she needs to do it unfortunately. Because I’m just not that good at reaching out and saying I’m struggling a bit. You know I’ve certainly – my path has continued and I’m definitely up a lot higher. You know you still have that bit of a, a fade but it’s all right. Without the support of my family, no way. I don’t even, I wouldn’t even be alive. I would be – not that I’d like to think about it but I reason, reasonably sure that would have been the outcome.

My sons they don’t know a great deal. I don’t know actually. I know they’re very internet savvy and they know that I do things with (organisation name) and of course they would know what that all means. And you know I remember I used to tell them the medication was cause I get headaches and [unclear] so I’ve told them a little bits you know. And they’re starting to know more but they’re kids, I want them to be kids. I don’t want them worrying about dad you know. But ah my family, my kids.

You know I’ve got some friends that know, maybe not everything, but they know enough that, you know, occasionally just give me a phone call. Or occasionally, you know, how are you travelling type thing. I don’t want people asking me every five minutes how you going, how you going and all that. But it’s nice just to get, you know, an email or something like that you know.

However, having said that, when I look back to my younger years I’d say anxiety was probably a theme rather than depressionah, a lot of anxiety, anxiety about whether, you know, I’d done something right or whether it could’ve been better or, you know, wasn’t good enough or things like that and then as I got older, ah, and as, as I say, my late thirties or mid thirties I think, I probably would’ve started to get a bit depressed but at that time my mum was still alive and she – cause she lived fairly close and we were all very close as a family, she was pretty good at noticing it and not labelling it – so she would make me laugh, she would pick me up, she would change the scene that we were in, she would do something that would change the whole mood. So rather than sit around and feel glum or anything like that or worry too much, ah, I always had her around to, I don’t know, lift things, and, and you know, help with the kids and things like that, because mum, when mum was around my marriage at that time was not great for various reasons and yeah, because I was studying so hard I needed her to help and to do, you know, things.

But I think all these sort of, you know, threads of anxiety somehow and fear have just threaded their way through my life. And my mum was always the, Yes you can do it, you can do whatever you want in life, you can do it, you can do it’, my father was always that ahYou’re just a good average girl, nice personality’, so you know, it’d be, You’d make a nice little nurse or a nice little teacher or something like that,’ whereas mum would be, Whatever you want to be is fine. So when I chose law, fine you choose law, that’s, you know, how it goes. So when she died I was floored. In fact I couldn’t actually take it in. I couldn’t seriously take it in. I did the eulogy at the funeralI can’t, I can only, only vaguely remember thatnd basically I justeah, just kind of went on as if, not as if nothing had happened, but I couldn’t allow it to process properly.

They do and they give me space, especially my older one. He tells the younger ones to leave me alone, but I try to hide it so much. It’s only when I got to a point where I used to hit rock bottom and I wouldn’t take in anything, I would just be taken away by feelings that I couldn’t describe and the kids would know that it’s time to leave her alone. They wouldn’t ask me silly questions.

I had got to a point where I think I used to let my children use me or abuse – I can’t call it abuse, because they would ask for stupid things, you know, or they would cry because they can’t do a trick that they saw on telly – I can’t do this trick, I’m dumb, and that would affect me and I would try and tell them you know you’re not dumb, you’re alright, you’ll get to know it. They did going through practice but they would still cry, especially my middle child.

And I got to a point where I thought, hey that’s enough. I don’t see why I should carry on their problems. They know – I stopped enabling them when they couldn’t do something and there’s – there are bits when they come crying, I can’t do this, I say of course you can. No I can’t. I say, it’s up to you. If you say you can’t then you won’t do it. How do you want me to help you? They say, I don’t know. I say, who can help you? It’s only you who can help yourself. I can’t help you.

I think because, you know, we, we’re all connected to other people in some fashion and even when we have depression and mental illness, we tend to isolate there are still people connected to us and sort of caring and sort of loving us.

But we don’t sort of really see that cause we’re so self-absorbed, we just can’t see out of the, the black hole.

Certainly – and even recently, my parents had quite worried about me and certainly with my work colleagues, not so much here at (organisation name), because they’re understanding, but my previous workplaces. Even though they were understanding it puts pressure on them – yeah, it affects all of your relationships and some people are more understanding and some people aren’t. yeah it just, it just affects all of your relationships.

What about when people have been understanding? Has there been a friend or a family member who – that has made a particular impression on you? Who was very understanding?

Yes. I think – I have one friend that I was working with. it was during my first bout of depression and she’d gone through some problems her, herself and she was the first person I told that I had depression and she was particularly understanding and supportive and I still see her now and we – we have nice deep conversations, which is really great.

But I guess with friends, some friends don’t understand at all and it’s important to remember not to burden them because they don’t understand. But there are other friends that do understand, but you don’t want to burden them either. But they are good to speak to you about certain things. It could be about one particular work thing or one particular relationship thing. Not to burden one person with everything.

I’ve had just about all different reactions, and I’ve had about all different types of input from family, both positive and negative, that you could imagine. I’ve had some negative and some positive. For example, you know, my mum’s been through so much, having been hospitalised with post natal depression, being on lithium, you know, diagnosed with major depression, and other things that she’s been diagnosed with. That she’s got so many pearls of wisdom to offer.

She used to run a [mental health peer support group] group of her own, and so she’s, you know, got all this fantastic knowledge. My dad used to be a social worker, so he’s got all of this fantastic, ah, knowledge as well. But then again, you know, my dad was a social worker, but he never picked up that I’d been abused. My dad was a social worker, but he had no idea that I had major depression until someone else diagnosed it. So even a person who’s, you know, trained in that field, and spends their day-to-day life dealing with others, and – and helping them get diagnosed doesn’t always mean that they can see what’s going on in their own patch.

I must say that there are some members of my family who I feel disappoint – disappointment with. Great disappointment. After you had the courage to tell them you’d been sexually abused when you were 19, ah, and for them to meet that with surprise, and then silence, that’s not – it’s not conducive – you know, or someone else saying to you yeah, I was abused too. As in, you know, don’t – don’t think you’re that good. You know, ah, so – but then again, some – you know, everyone of those family members who’s given me something bad, you know, more than likely they’ve – they’ve also told me something positive as well.

And I do know that, you know, I – I’m – I’m very lucky. My – my parents are – are still together. and I do know that everyone in my family loves me. And the people that love me in my family, do so unconditionally, and they just want me to be happy, and so that, for me, has become more than enough.

Everyone else has their own life to lead, and everyone else has their own stuff to sort out. And so my expectations – I’ve become far more self-sufficient, and I just enjoy what my family can offer me. But I don’t expect anything anymore.

I was disappointed a lot, but that was probably because my expectations were too high, and I felt I deserved, you know, something like an Oscar winning movie, or something as – you know, the whole family’s there to greet me, and everything ends happily.

I would stay uh and stay for days at a time in bed and [raises eyebrows] I was a cranky son of a gun. And the kids wanted to know why it wasn’t happening and you know, and I couldn’t do anything about it. And you know, my wife stood in, took in, stood up and, and took care of the situation and I’m sure that she was pretty fearful of the situation. But by that stage the superannuation income protection had run out and she was wondering what’s going on and how were we going to live and how we were going to pay the mortgage? And I couldn’t do anything – I, you know, [shrugs] I couldn’t even dial the telephone.

And for this I am eternally indebted to my wife – she’s such a strong woman, you know? And, and she had three kiddies that, you know, and I was, you know, I did what I could but, you know, between being cranky and depressed and – it must have been horrible for her.

Look, I’d, as uh – well first of all you know, understanding from my wife. I mean I, I think, you know, she could have gone, You’re all too hard, I’m out of here. And [shakes head] and I wouldn’t have blamed her because I probably was a real arsehole, when I was really sick, you know? And if I wasn’t an arsehole I didn’t want to go anywhere or do anything, or anything like that. So you know, that was, that was very important.

I think [husband] was in denial about the whole experience and even now he still, we still, ah that’s what – it’s something we do argue about. Is that I don’t think he supported me in that but I, uh, I think it’s just scared him beyond wits’ belief because, oh, I guess I don’t know, I was the strong one in our little duo. And, I wasn’t myself, wasn’t at all the character that he knew. but it still hurts to think that he didn’t take a day off work or can, you know, he’d ask how you were, how I was.

But, uh, when I was upset and, at night and what have you, he’d sometimes get angry if I’d woke him up. And I know that’s something we’ve got to resolve, that’s a whole total different issue. But, yes, that’s something that needs closure on it I think. Because it, we do want three children and I’m absolutely terrified that this is going to come back again. It may not, it may they say.

And even, I can’t, I know we need to talk to a counsellor because he still doesn’t, he’s still almost in denial. He doesn’t understand how bad it was and when I talk about, even the fact that I wanted to run in front of a bus, no you didn’t. Sort of brushes it off and it causes me just to not even bother talking about it because it, I get too frustrated by it. So we, I mean she does relationship counselling too as a counsellor so, and because she knows us maybe it’s a good idea to go back to her again for that. Now that I can go with sort of a different agenda or a different set of issues. Because having a child’s hard enough on a relationship, let alone one being depressed. It would break up a lot of people I think, could easily do it.

Because I think I was scared enough of it myself and he was running away from it by going to work every day. You know, I can remember crying and crying, trying to do [younger son’s] nappy and poo’s everywhere and I’m crying. I couldn’t see because I’m crying and he just kissed me on the forehead and kissed the kids on the forehead and walked off and went to work.

It broke my heart and it still does make me feel that. You just, you – I don’t have the word – you just feel, yeah, unsupported and I don’t know. He definitely prioritised work over any thing I had on. I can remember waking up and saying [husband], do you remember last night? I was this close to walking in front of a bus. It no actually I don’t know if I was attention seeking as well. I don’t know if I had those suicidal thoughts because I wasn’t getting support from the one person I needed – my husband. And so was I attention seeking? Looking for his acknowledgement of how serious this was by, by sort of making it a bit more, intense? Or a bit more dramatic or?

My wife isn’t sure that I’ve got depression. So that’s when we have a fight. Because if she doesn’t think I’ve got depress, got depression I’m lazy. I won’t get out of bed. But I’ve never been lazy in my life. During my working life I’ve never been lazy. I’ve enjoyed life, every bit of it.

So you think that that she maybe, she maybe doesn’t understand you well?

Well, that would, that would be subject to two provisos. One is this that she accepts I’ve got depression and the second is that she would know what to do about it to help me, right?

But do you know how, how, in what way would you like to be supported by her? Like what would you ideally want from her yourself?

Better understanding I suppose, that’s all. You see another thing that doesn’t help the depression, makes it worse, since I lost the sight in one eye and this one has macular degeneration and I’m not active unless I have the oxygen machine. I’ve had to stop playing tennis. I’ve had to stop playing golf. I’ve had to stop playing outdoor bowls. I’ve got no sporting life at all. That’s why I’m mad on sports on TV. I mean I used to be out three and four times a week – pardon me – from the

From the lung.

lung trying to get up.

So you miss – do you miss not being able to be outside, outdoors more?

Mm. It’s getting harder and harder.

See I wouldn’t like to live after, to look after me, right? And she’s got to have a life of her own and I don’t begrudge her at all. She plays bowls, she plays golf, she plays tennis, she plays bridge Fridays and Saturdays. She’s a born organiser of mothers’ clubs, right? Arranging lunches and everything else. And she spends Thursday afternoons at the local library, a volunteer. And she’s got her church on a Sunday morning. She has a very active life and good on her, she’d need – she’d need to have an active life to put up with me, right?

Yeah, the first time the people that I was sort of hanging around with at that time, who I don’t have any contact with now, I think they meant to be supportive but I remember feeling at the time it wasn’t, their behaviour wasn’t helpful. So essentially I was told that I was fragile, from my social supports and that I wasn’t allowed to go out and I wasn’t allowed to hang out with my friends or talk on the phone or anything that would cause my fragility to break.

I always them as, I always saw that as a big thing for me, that they were very supportive in that way. So when I moved away from my personal supports at that stage, it was a big break, it was a substantial, you know I left essentially a family behind when I left a relationship and it left a major hole for me. I was very lucky that I had my workmates and also some old friends from high school in fact who had not been close to me for a long time, but you know with significant break ups we always need to go back to try to find our old friends who mean a lot to us (smiles). And they, I had two in particular who just really stepped in and were really fantastic and continue to be in relation to my depression and understand that sometimes I just need to have downtime and understand that I can’t, you know, I can’t always be up.

And yeah, so that’s, how I sort of evolved from it, I suppose. And my own family, my, I have all my family, except for me, are in the medical field and one of my sisters is a doctor, well both are doctors but one of them is a doctor but has chosen to leave the medical profession, and she was particularly supportive of me trying you know other things other than medicine other than you know pharmaceuticals to work with my depression.

Poor, on Austudy, no money, partner – no money, very poor, living in a house, very isolated. As I became more and more unwell my friends, well a lot of my friends disappeared – which is pretty much a true experience of anybody with a mental illness, you know. My friends were great on Nicaragua or great on South Africa and apartheid but not terribly good on assisting their psychotic and depressed friend that they’d known for a while.

And my brother is a doctor and he’s got seven kids and he’s a good brother and looks after me and, you know, he you know. He’s going well and – but we, my brother and I were always very close. We still are close. We were very close in, he was very good to me. He looked after me.

So we were, I was very lucky to get two very close friends and that made a difference, you know? Made a big difference having people who you could talk to and then I remember I – when I was about 30 – 28, 29 I went back to do social work. And again I met some, two close friends that I’m close to now and that made a difference having people. Having people in your life, you know, have been more than a diagnosis or a label, you know.

Social support, just being there. Just talking to you, just going out for dinner. Just when you, when you know you’re a bit alienated and lonely, being able to ring somebody up and not talk about being depressed because, you know, that’s not very helpful. But just to be able to talk about other things, you know, talk about, talk about, you know, what the footy’s like or you know, what movie you’re going to go and see. So just normal everyday things.

People would say, of course, they’d tell you to snap out of it, which is ridiculous, you can’t. And no-one with depression wants to hear that. Nor do they want to hear, Well you know, you’ve got a good life, and you know, nice house, why do you feel like this? You shouldn’t feel like that. That’s ridiculous too, because people in, in all sorts of situations will get
depression.

The support with my wife was good and the kids didn’t know of course, [runs hand through hair] they knew there was a change in me, that I was acting strange, but. A lot of friends sort of moved away a bit, those that knew when I decided to withdraw away, because I wasn’t feeling well, they didn’t ah sort of come around helping or looking to give assistance. Well I suppose – which is understandable back 35 years ago – it’s probably understandable now. That they think someone’s a bit silly or strange or having odd spells, they don’t want to get involved. I – and I suppose if I hadn’t been through this, I’d, I would probably feel the same. Because you don’t, you don’t understand what’s going on, unless you’ve had it, I think.

Loneliness is, is probably my biggest thing (upset). All my old friends are gone. My friends, my friends – your friends – they’ve been beautiful to me, very supportive. When the relationship is mainly through my husband, but because my husband has been unresponsive to his ex – his best friends. He has, he’s had two best friends in his life and he’s been unresponsive to them and they’re such beautiful people. They’re coming to me and, and supporting me as much as they’re supporting, or trying to support, [husband] even though [husband’s] not responding. So I do have some old friends there.

But I don’t want to be a burden on anybody, you know, I can’t, if I fall into financial difficulty or something like that or if I develop an illness I don’t know who or if anybody will be there, you know, for me. I feel very alone, profoundly alone in that way. My children are both very young, so it’s not like I have older children that could help me. My sisters, I don’t know if they would help me. I don’t know if they love me enough to, to help me (upset).

I have a lot of nice new friends that have just come into my life and sometimes I think that’s sad because no one’s known me for more than a year. But then maybe that’s just the way it’s supposed to be right now. They’re the right friends in my life at the moment and they’re encouraging me and supporting me and, and loving me and, and accepting me for who I am. And I’m being true to myself now so I don’t have to put on airs and graces for anybody and present myself differently so that they like me. They like me for who I am and what I am now. So, you know, even though they haven’t known me long I hope that they’ll be, they seem like important people to me now and I hope that they’ll be friends for a long time.

Friends definitely, ongoing support rather than that support for the first couple of weeks after someone dies and then okay, she’s fine now and everyone gets back on with their lives. I said that to the counsellor at the Coroner’s Court the other week and you know, she said but people don’t, for me the fact I’ve lost a child is foremost in my mind and lives with me every minute of every day.

Other people have got other things, they don’t think oh by the way, Rosie’s lost a child, oh by the way, Rosie’s lost a child, oh by the way, Rosie’s lost a child. They don’t remember, they don’t think about it, they don’t care. They get on with their lives and it’s not until there’s a form of memory. But you just wish that you know, just because I’m happy and I’m an outgoing person and I’m playing softball and I’m hitting the ball and I’m having a drink, and – it doesn’t mean to say that that’s, I’m happy the whole time.

The friends that gave me books at the funeral, that was fantastic, so that was really good. Only a few of those friends, text messages on Mother’s Day, I got nothing for Mother’s Day this year. Not even my son. Ah, so it’s the anniversaries that are the hardest. The first year is definitely the hardest and everyone said that. And in the first year I wanted to punch them in the face again, you know shut up. But you know, in hindsight it’s true. But it could be four years, it could be four minutes, it could be four weeks, it could be 40 years, it’s still to a large extent just as hard that you’ve lost a child. it’s just not quite as raw because you’ve dealt, you’ve learnt to deal with it.

You’ve learnt to understand and know your emotions and one other thing is to I try to, I don’t pamper myself because again – childhood stuff, we never got pampered you know, but my form of pampering, so it might be a you know, give myself a face mask, you know, light the candles, have a nice glass of wine, sit down and read my book and watch TV and kind of just relax and chill out time.

I think it depends on each individual person too. Because I guess I’m an independent person and like my own company. So I don’t want people smothering me but I want, I want the support that reaches out and says if you need me, I’m here and I understand how you’re feeling but I don’t want people knocking at my door every three minutes and bringing casseroles for the next 20 years. So each person’s individual and different.

But text messages on all the important days. New Year’s, Christmas, birthday, [older son]’s birthday, the day he died, people don’t remember on the day he died. And I understand that. Reality, I understand it but emotionally I want, I want someone. I had one friend who I worked with, except Mother’s Day this year, that’s the first time. She’s forgotten and that’s probably because she lost her Mum recently. She’s been great and that’s what you appreciate. So you might not see her physically or go out with her for six months but she texts and says, I’m thinking of you and I know how hard it is.

That would be my ideal support. That people just reach out and they don’t have to say much, they don’t have to actually do very much, if anything, just a, an email or a text message or a phone call to say, I hope you’re okay, we’re thinking of you, if you need anything we are here.