English translation:

With your first one, I don’t think you’d do anything. Well, personally I wouldn’t have done anything. Because being a carrier and having children, it’s a lottery. And I’m living proof of the lottery of sickle cell. Because I’ve got one child, the first, who has sickle cell anaemia, the second is AS [sickle cell carrier] and the third is AA [not a carrier]. So you can’t, you can’t, it’s true that all of a sudden it’s difficult, but I think when you’re having your first baby you can’t allow yourself to, to take these big decisions.

It’s perhaps after the first, thinking about the second, in the situation where you live with the first child, and then perhaps you begin to ask yourself questions. Because the, the biggest decision, it’s when the child is there or when you fall pregnant, and you have the test done to know if the child will be born with sickle cell or not. I think that the hardest thing is the decision to take afterwards. Because when it happens, okay, I’m pregnant, the child’s born, hes got it or he hasn’t got it. I haven’t had to agonise over this decision. But when you know already that hes moving inside you, theres already contact with the mother, and then you find out the child is affected, what kind of decision are you going to make?

It’s really hard because at the same time the child’s already there. The first one is ill. I love him very much. And with that one I don’t know how it’s going to be. And if I’m going to have to take a, a decision, basically that means that I’d have to end the pregnancy. So somebody who takes that decision to end a pregnancy, that’s a sense of guilt that’s there, that you’re, you, you don’t risk forgetting that straight away. So I believe it’s very very hard. Thank God, I haven’t had to take that decision. But I was afraid of it all the time. But for the two first ones, I didn’t have to do that. It was when I was here that I think because of, because of my age I did that. But it was very agonising.

Footnote This mother had one baby with the condition, one who was a carrier and one who was unaffected. However, the 1 in 4 risk of having a baby with the condition remains the same in each pregnancy. Just because a couple already has one child with the condition, this does not mean their next child will be unaffected. Each child could be affected.

French original:

Pour le premier, je crois qu’on ne fait rien. En fait, personnellement je n’aurais rien fait, parce que être porteur et avoir des enfants c’est la lotterie. Et moi je suis la partie même vivante de la lotterie de la drépanocytose, parce que j’ai eu un enfant, le premier qui est SS, le deuxième qui est AS et la troisième qui est AA. Donc, on peut pas, on peut pas c’est vrai que sur le coup c’est difficile, mais je crois qu’avec un premier enfant on ne peut pas se permettre de prendre des grandes décisions. C’est peut-être après le premier ou voir le deuxième, la situation dans laquelle on vit avec le premier et là on se pose des questions, parce que la plus grande décision c’est quand l’enfant est là ou que l’on tombe enceinte, et que l’on fait ce test pour savoir si l’enfant va naître avec la drépanocytose ou pas. Moi je pense que le plus dur c’est la décision à prendre après. Parce que quand tu viens bon, je suis enceinte, il naît, il l’a, il ne l’a pas, j’ai pas eu à me casser la tête. Mais quand on sait déjà qu’il bouge là-dedans, il y a déjà quand-même le contact avec la maman, et après l’enfant il est atteint, qu’est-ce-que vous allez prendre comme décision ?

C’est dur parce qu’en même temps il est là. C’est le premier qui est malade, je l’aime bien et celui là je ne sais pas comment ça va être, et si je dois prendre une décision donc ça veut dire qu’il faut arrêter la grossesse. Donc qui dit arrêter la grossesse il y a une culpabilité qui est là, qu’on ne risque pas d’oublier tout de suite. Donc je crois que c’est très très dur. Dieu merci je n’ai pas eu à prendre cette décision, mais j’appréhendais ça toujours. Mais les deux premiers je n’ai pas eu a faire ça. C’est quand je suis ici je crois que par rapport au c’est plus par rapport à l’âge, j’ai fait ça, mais c’était très angoissant.

You didn’t go to see the counsellor at all then?

No.

So it’s just your husband went?

Yes, he went just once.

And how did he feed back what hed heard?

[Laughs] He brought some drawings and some, some lines. He wanted to show it to me. I was like, no need. Theres no need, because [pause] when I see that, that means I’m accepting that’s what – I respect their views, yes, that medical science has said, ‘Oh yes you have a, you’re a sickle cell trait carrier. Yeah, I respect medical science, but God every time has, has shocked medical science, you know? So I’m not ready to now look at the paper and say, ‘Oh, OK, this is how it happened. Uh-uh. It didn’t happen like that. God gave me the baby, and God is going to help me deliver the baby, and the baby’s going to come out well. You know, I feel it every day, you know? And I know before I started, before I got pregnant, I know – you know when you’re praying for your baby?

You know the kind of baby you want. The bible says whatever you ask He gives. And I believe that strongly, because by faith so many things have happened to me. By faith I came to this country to do my masters. By faith I got the visa. By faith I got my job. By faith I got my papers to stay here. By faith I got this council flat, because of the baby. By faith so many things, you know? And I just know it, the baby’s blessed, because the baby’s opened so many doors for us. So it’s, I think basically it’s just faith. Faith in knowing who I’m carrying, and who I’m serving, so.

So did you kind of even begin to look at the drawings and think, you know the

No

..the one in four this and the?

I never looked at it. I just knew I just saw some lines [laugh]. I never looked at what, I just saw lines. It was like, ‘Oh. Just keep it there.

What about your husband? How did he feel about it?

Just at first, the first day when he went for the, I think he went for a consultation, and they talked to him and everything. But when he came home all I had to do, when he wanted to talk, I was like, ‘No. We know the God we serve. You know, the bible says a woman’s faith carries her husband, because if you have a good wife you’ll be blessed, as in financially and everything. So it’s always the woman that has to be the stronger one, faith-wise. So I’m like, ‘Look, this is what it is. This is the God we serve. We should remember where were coming from. And he was like, ‘You’re right, you know. And that’s how we dismissed it. And weve never spoken about it till today.

[Laugh] So it sort of maybe crossed his mind to have testing, you think?

No. Since that first – the first time, yes. Everybody’s human. The first time he was like, ‘Should we?’ I’m like, ‘No. It never crossed my mind, never, ever, ever, ever.

So you didn’t get as far as thinking about the risks of the, you know, because it could cause a miscarriage if you had those tests?

I didn’t even think about. I didn’t even read their booklet [laugh]. It was when I was packing my stuff, I was arranging the stuff on the table and I saw the booklet. I was like, ‘Oh my goodness. That was bad of me, I never read it. I threw it away two days ago or something. I never read their booklet.

Going back to thinking about your, your decision-making and, and your attitudes to termination and living with disability was religion any part in your thinking, at a different level of moral discussions?

Father’I don’t think either of us would put any religious barrier to, to considering it. No, I don’t, I think really, the real crux of it, I think, was – and I think it was, it was my idea that we – wed always said, ‘Don’t bother testing for anything. But once we had to have the thalassaemia, we decided to go for the thalassaemia test, I said, ‘Well, we should test for everything in case, in case the odds then stacked up and made the child’s life so potentially unpleasant, as it were, you know, difficult.

Mother’But we said all that in theory. Whether or not we would have, if we had been faced with a combination of problems, whether or not we would have done anything in practice you can’t say now with the benefit of hindsight. But all I can say is now I would be much more certain in the future that I wouldn’t. I can’t say that I wouldn’t opt for the screening, because once you’ve had the screening and you know the outcome then you can arm yourself, educate yourself as to what you are potentially facing. I mean, I would say that the, you know, the old saying of, ‘A little knowledge is a dangerous thing is very true because, you know, you can absolutely drive yourself crazy by things that you will read. And you need to make sure that the education that you’re giving yourself or you’re being told is actually the best information, the most up-to-date medical information that you – scientific research et cetera – that can be given to you.

And if it were just to look for confirmation of thalassaemia?

Mother’Wouldn’t bother.

Father’No.

Mother’Wouldn’t bother. But having said that, we know that any other child we have is not going to be any more badly affected than, than our child is now. And so, you know, touch wood weve got through the first x number of months without transfusions et cetera et cetera. So if that, if that’s effectively guaranteed for, for another child, which weve been assured it would be, then no, I certainly wouldn’t have any screening for thalassaemia again.

FootnoteIt can sometimes be difficult to establish a clear diagnosis. Some people inherit a mild beta thalassaemia mutation, and they may have a form of the condition called beta thalassaemia intermedia. People with a very mild thalassaemia intermedia may not need regular blood transfusions. This couples baby has remained healthy, which was not as predicted.

Mother’I think the other thing is that the baby was our first child, and you don’t know how you’re going to feel as a parent until you have a, your baby in your arms. And what I would say now is that, if I have more children, I know how it feels to be a mother now. And the decision that you may consider making as a first-time parent or as a prospective first-time parent I think could be very different to a condition, a decision that you make with subsequent pregnancies, with subsequent children. Because you, it’s not until you have a child that you experience the joy of having that child, and the pain – because theres obviously the pain that goes with, with parenthood. And it’s not physical pain as well, but it’s, you know, it’s a desire to do the best for your child, and look after it and for it to have the best in life.

Yeah. Two months ago. Yeah, she had a stroke, and she survived it. Yeah. She had a stroke and I don’t know that SS [sickle cell anaemia] is more – I know SS is serious, but I don’t know how serious it is than SC [haemoglobin SC disorder]. So at the surgery the doctor said SS they can, they can have stroke, it’s, it’s the, it’s the disease. They can have stroke. But SC they can’t have stroke. So she had stroke about two months ago and she survived it. So that’s why I said it. And she have to be going for transfusion, blood transfusion, every four weeks for the rest of her life. So that’s why I said if, if at all I’m pregnant, which I’m not planning, I would do the CVS test.

Footnote SC disorder is usually less severe than sickle cell anaemia, although it is still possible that people with SC disorder can have a stroke and other quite severe symptoms.