He fed in fact until I fell pregnant and it wasn’t until he actually said to me one night, Mummy this milk is awful, I don’t want it anymore that I actually realised that I was that I was expecting another baby, so actually that was quite interesting. And he was, well he seemed happy to stop feeding although since weve had the baby his behaviour has actually changed so hes actually become much less settled and gets quite cross sometimes and cries, quite angry but not with the baby but with me more, and probably with his daddy as well quite a lot. But it could be just a reaction with the baby, I don’t think it’s a reaction because hes not feeding any more and the baby is even though, you know, the way, as I say, he stopped because I was, was pregnant and then that’s when we realised that, but up until then he fed very on demand and very happily so.

So talk to me a little bit about weaning.

Well I don’t know how to do that, I have no idea how to wean a baby from breastfeeding, I just have waited until they’ve been ready, in fact probably the second child was, was easier because of this situation with me falling pregnant and the milk consistency obviously changing and it just wasn’t right for him anymore and it just was an overnight thing, just didn’t want it anymore. But the first baby, we thought by the time she was four and a half that it was probably about time that she could stop. So it was mainly just the bedtime feed that she was having so, so what we did actually was we introduced a, sort of a more of a different bedtime routine including a hot chocolate and a supper, and we said, Well, you know, mummy can’t actually make the milk for you anymore because you’re such a big girl and you can now have this special supper and this is for you’ and you know, and that she took to that very quickly. I think it’s harder for me, you know, actually so but yes that’s how we weaned those two and I’ve got no idea with [son] how we will wean him, I’m just going to wait and see, hes still very attached to feeding and I have no intention of physically or forcefully removing him from that so I don’t know how to wean a baby.

What about weaning him?

What at the end of the year and a half? That was kind of, that kind of happened just sort of naturally really, he in fact what happened was, I think I was going to go away for a weekend and he was a year and a half old and I just thought well let’s just see what happens, I won’t, you know there was still a little bit of expressed milk left that I think my husband was going to use up and I left it and then when I came back after I had been away for a couple of days I thought actually that’s it you know, I think well leave it now, because it was easier then to kind of stop because I’d sort of been away for a couple of days and yeah so we just kind of just, I just stopped.

How often was he feeding at that stage do you think?

At that stage he was feeding first thing, he was feeding last thing and then probably, oh I don’t know he was maybe only having another couple of feeds during the day because he was you know, he was eating a toddler diet basically so he fed more if he was ill or you know grumpy or whatever, but probably not that much so he was kind of self weaning himself anyway, kind of you know wasn’t terribly bothered about it, so it just seemed the most natural thing just to stop.

Did he ask for it when you got home?

No, no.

Ah, so hed had enough anyway?

Yeah so I think he was probably you know ready to.

You had no problems with milk building up or anything like that?

No, I didn’t, I didn’t at all I just, I just dried up and I think because he hadn’t been taking, he probably hadn’t been taking a great deal I think it had dropped off anyway so yeah I didn’t even have to express a little bit, just so it was fine, really fine.

Will you be okay when he doesn’t want to feed any more?

I have such mixed feelings. I will be, I would be delighted on one level, on a rational level, I would be thrilled any time in the last year if he decided he wanted to stop, there will always be that little loss, that, because it’s something very, very special for the both of us and once it’s gone it’s gone, and I know were not going to have any more kids. So I will be happy but I will also, therell always be a tinge of sadness, but that would have happened even if hed have weaned before. And I, it’s interesting I’ve been away for him, from him, I have left him at my parents on an occasion, and with my mother-law on occasion for three days, that’s three nights, and he was fine without me, he managed fine without any breastfeeding. But the moment I came back he needed a feed, it was almost like his way of connecting back with me, so it’s going to be interesting to see how it gently spreads out, I mean, I realise I didn’t feed him this morning. And will that happen then tomorrow? Will there be a time when I’ll suddenly look back and think, ‘My goodness weve not fed for a week.

What was the impact on your milk supply and you when you were away for three days?

Not an issue at all. I think, because, we, I don’t know how much milk there is now, I don’t know how much, he sometimes now is quite quick, you know, have a bit of feed it’s almost like he needs to connect with me, it’s his way of sort of connecting with me and hell say, ‘Nugger side, nugger side. And then he goes on the other side and then, and then hes happy hes off. If I try and reduce it and try and get him to come off sooner then hes not happy it’s almost like his little something, if hes, you know, hes only two and a half, hes in, hes got the whole of his life ahead of him, hes at nursery now, hes exploring the world, hes incredibly adventurous and confident, but if he needs that little bit of something still from me in the morning, then that’s fine.

So what was the last straw? What made you give up in the end then?

Possibly selfishness after all those years having a baby and then finding out that I really would like to nip to the loo when I wanted to go to the loo and I would like to sit down and eat a meal and, probably, I would like to hand her over to somebody else for five minutes, it would be nice.

Whose decision was it made, was it to stop?

Mine, mine completely.

How did you do it? You had a fully breastfeeding baby at this stage?

I think we brought in, we were told to bring in a bottle, the advice bring in a bottle of the evening and then, try and bring, them slowly in but I think within about three days she was on bottles, she took very quickly to bottles unlike my son she did take to the bottles okay.

What about your milk supply and your comfort?

I think the cabbage leaves came into play again then. I wasn’t bad, I don’t remember being, I remember being in a bit of pain, maybe a bit engorged for some, for a couple of days or so, but I don’t remember suffering for, it was probably like the overwhelming relief of I mean I just wanted her.

So it was relief?

I was relieved when she went on bottles yes. And partially because I knew how much she was drinking and I think she was more settled.

And that was important to you to know how much she was’

Yeah I think it was.

‘getting in her feed?

I did want to know how much she was getting, yes, and I couldn’t tell that and as I said, because I was constantly engorged I don’t think, I had the feeling that she wasn’t emptying the breast, she wasn’t feeding properly, and she didn’t seem settled, saying that in retrospect a lot of the wandering around with her trying to get her to sleep and stuff like that continued way months after she went on bottles so I think a lot of it was just her nature but.

So you think the bottles didn’t settle her any more?

I don’t, no I don’t think they settled her, any more, no I think I just felt more comfortable with maybe that bit more freedom.

What about her weight did it make any difference to that?

No I don’t, her weight seems, I think her weight was very similar to my son’s, there doesn’t seem to, maybe a bit heavier, not really, no major difference, no.

So she just continued to gain in the same

She just continued fine.

‘way as she had on the breast?

Absolutely fine yes. So it was, it was probably more for, more for me than her looking back, just felt a bit claustrophobic so.

Five weeks. When she came home I continued to try to breastfeed her at home, but it didn’t, I wasn’t hugely successful, and without, you know, somebody there standing over you, encouraging you, and showing you more importantly and saying, Yes that’s correct’, I don’t know because I suppose at that time you’re just so tired and you’re overwhelmed with everything and then, and then the milk supply just started to stop because I couldn’t then even express, only, you know, only get a couple of ounces, and so I thought well perhaps I could have her at the breast and she could be latched but theres nothing, nothing there. And because you can’t at home have the facility to weigh them before and after you couldn’t tell how much she was getting so that’s when I sort of moved to formula milk through a bottle. Which was disappointing but not heartbreaking because I think you’re so concerned that they have something you don’t think too much about necessarily where it comes from and I think I was quite satisfied that I’d done as much as I could, and I couldn’t really do, you know, you can’t magic milk out of thin air so you, yeah.

That was at that stage?

Mm-hm.

How do you feel about it all now looking back?

I got, I go through different per, well I used to go through different periods, I would think that, I felt a failure in certain aspects and I felt that I’d let her down and I, and I went through a mixture of emotions, you know, disappointed, upset, angry but now when I look back especially as our daughter is older and quite happily, you know, and well developed and, you know, doesn’t seem any, any the worse off for it, I think I did, I did what I could, and I’m just glad that I tried, because the other lady that I met in the Kinder Clinic didn’t want to at all and wasn’t, and wasn’t forced to and just didn’t and I, for no other reason than she didn’t want to and I don’t disagree with that, you know, that’s personal choice but I think well I did, and I did what I could and it maybe never went how I wanted it to, but.

How did you deal with those emotions at the time as they came up?

I don’t know how I dealt with it, you just, I think you just do, and I think once you have a baby in Special Care every, everything else seems to just go out of the window because you focus solely on them and everything else just becomes irrelevant. I was quite lucky being in Germany because when you’ve had a section in Germany you can drive straight away afterwards. So I don’t think you get in the mindset of, Oh gosh. You know, I can’t drive, is it because my scar is going to pop open? Or I’m very vulnerable, or?’ You, you don’t feel vulnerable at all because you, you know, you can get in a car and I had to drive to the hospital to see Amy daily, and I think that just takes over anything else, I think it catches up with you later on after the event, when I look back now I think, I’m surprised how well I coped.

So now at eight months her routine is she gets a breastfeed from me in the morning and she gets her breastfeed from me mid-morning, the one morning shes in nursery she gets it from the bottle, the afternoon shes now on a snack and water and she gets a breastfeed from me before she goes to her bed at night. So, that’s what I’d like to continue with that until shes about nine months old and then think about dropping out the mid-morning breastfeed so that she would only then be getting breastmilk first thing in the morning when she wakes up and last thing at night before she goes to bed. After that, I haven’t quite decided, I’ve got a rough idea in my head of where I want to go, and along the lines of maybe till shes about, from about ten and a half months I’d like to just maybe try and drop one of those feeds, so that by the time shes a year shes completely finished breastfeeding from me. Haven’t decided which feeds going to be better to drop at the ten and a half months I’ve got pros and cons for each of them.

What are they?

You know, I think breastfeeding first thing in the morning sets her up for the day, you know, shell get some milk from me, it’ll get her going, you know, downside I suppose it’d be easier to have her waking up and then coming down and just going straight into breakfast with ourselves, so it would cut out the, I mean the breastfeeding in the morning probably takes me anything from sort of ten to twenty minutes so it would either give me a little longer in bed or just her routine in the morning where if you’re rushing away to do something or whatever it would, it would be better. Or then you’ve got the night feed where do you want to continue, you know, giving your child milk before they’re going to bed from yourself, at the moment shell sometimes, shell more often than not fall asleep feeding and then I can carry her up to her cot and put her down, and she normally, shell stay settled. Sometimes which shes started doing again, shell be awake after her feed and I’ll just have to read her a story and shell go down to sleep no problem, but do you want to get into the routine of, you know, is she actually feeding because she wants it or is she going to feed because it’s a comfort for her before she goes to bed? So I’m running through all those things in my head at the moment to try and make a decision as to, to which ones going to be the better and I think around about the year old would be a good time where to completely stop the breastfeeding, I know some people go on a lot longer.

How long do you think you’ll feed, what are your plans?

I was, I initially said that I’d feed for four months, me and my partner like going out quite a lot and I said I’d feed up until Christmas when [son] was four months and then wed go out New Year’s Eve. I think I was living still as the person that I was before and now obviously my feelings are to do the right thing by [son]. And four months wasn’t long enough so hes now four, hes just coming up five, but I’m going to feed till hes six months and get him weaned and then I will give up but I will still, I will give him formula feeds after six months, but I think the first six months are very important for breastfeeding.

And hes exclusively breastfed?

Hes exclusively breastfed and he will be up until hes six months. I’m quite proud to say.

So by about twenty months shed started to cut down to one feed a night before she went to bed?

Yeah she were only doing that one feed and if she didn’t sort of remember about it, it was only when I would prompt, but some nights she would’ve quite happily just gone off to bed, and not had a feed. And I sort of, I were aware that there were things called nursing strikes but shed not just stop, she would if I asked her and then one day I asked her and she said, ‘No’ she didn’t want it so I said, ‘okay’ and off she went to bed and then the next day she did and, this went on for a while and then she just started to say no all the time, and after about two weeks of her saying no, and me keep offering, I discussed it with my husband and he said, ‘You know, maybe if she wants it shell ask’ so I thought, ‘well I’ll not offer and I’ll see what happens’, and since that day shes never mentioned it again, and I would rather have continued for longer, but, and I worry sometimes that were it a nursing strike, and I found it very difficult to cope with what happened and I spoke to a breastfeeding counsellor about it because I felt my whole relationship with her had changed. And I think it linked with my illness and breastfeeding starting as the thing that I could take control of and other people couldn’t and it was ending, and I think that I, felt that, quite deeply, because I had stopped being the one and only person that could do this thing for her, because anybody could make you know, fish fingers and mashed potato, and I really struggled for a few months to come to terms with it and then I spoke to a breastfeeding counsellor and she talked to me about how it, to embrace it as another stage of my daughter’s development and not so much a rejection of me, that, you know, she was growing and I was her mother and would always be her mother and would begin to sort of bring new things to her life as she became more independent. And I did, so I did work with that but still theres some sadness deep down that I think, ‘Should I have, should I have kept asking for a month? Should I have tried a little bit harder to keep that going?’ But then I question who would that have been for really, would that have been for me? Because it was never a time when she was told that she couldn’t have it, she could’ve asked.

What I have had is that kind of comment that sounds friendly and well-meaning along the lines of, ‘Oh are you still feeding that? when are you going to wean, when are you going to?’ it’s almost like people want you to give up, I don’t know why.

How do you deal with those sorts of comments?

I’ve just tended to say, ‘Well I’ll just see how things go’ and, you know, theres no particular reason to do it now and I don’t want to cause a lot of distress to the, the baby when, or the toddler when, when they’re obviously wanting it and enjoying it still and it’s not really any big deal to me to I mean as I’ve said the only time when I thought, ‘Right I’m really going to wean this toddler now’ my first daughter was when I wanted another baby, and I know this is not the case for all women but I hadn’t had the return of periods at that point, I imagine because I was breastfeeding, and so I thought, ‘Well I want a sibling for the baby so.

Were you aware of the contraceptive effect of breastfeeding at that stage, did you know anything about it?

I realised, yeah that breastfeeding was going to suppress my periods for at least for, for a short while but it carried on and on and I didn’t, and I suppose that was the reason I didn’t, they didn’t come back for as long as they didn’t, but I was still feeding a lot at that point, I mean that it wasn’t just one feed a day I was still feeding six times a day or something probably, on and off.

Okay so how did you handle the weaning?

I think it was, it was something she didn’t want to do so there was a little bit of guilt, I felt a little bit guilty doing it and I was very much saying, ‘Well you’re a big girl now’ and, you know, obviously by this point she was also drinking all sorts of things and eating everything and, you know, and I really got the feeling that it was more for comfort than for nutrition at this point, so I think I just sort of distracted her really, when she would come to feed I would say, ‘How about a story?’ or we would, you know, get up and off the sofa and go and go off and do something and, but I remember our last breastfeed quite clearly and I, you know, I feel sort of quite, you know, emotional when I think well that was the last time that she fed.

Did you cut out one feed at a time or anything like that?

I don’t think it was as kind of planned as that, I suppose by that point she was more snacking than having really great gulping feeds apart from at bedtime when she still would, and no, first thing in the morning actually was the biggest feed for a long while and I think it was when I got rid of that one it’s almost like all the other ones fell away by themselves.

And any problems with milk supply at that stage as you’re slowing down?

I think I must have been cutting down gradually because I didn’t find any engorgement or mastitis or anything then, it must have just sort of happened quite slowly and without any kind of massive cut off.

I was thinking, ‘I’d have enough of this’ and I was getting fed up with doing it and so in the end I said to my dad I said, ‘Could she come to you for a weekend?’ Because I’ve got to go and look at houses anyway because I was going to buy a new house, so she stayed there for a weekend and, you know, I fed her beforehand and I said to her, ‘Right you’re going to be at granddad’s for the weekend and you won’t be able to have any mummy milk’, which was what she called it, and she said, ‘Oh I’m a big girl now and that was that’, so she never asked again, so, which was a bit sad really for me but she didn’t mind, but I had had enough of it obviously two and a half and enoughs enough, I mean it was only morning and night anyway and only then when she remembered to ask, so I just thought, ‘Right let’s call it a day’, shes had a good go.

I think theres quite a big push to wean children, and a lot of my friends were trying to encourage me to get, to stop breastfeeding and encouraged me to get her back onto a bottle, it’s kind of a whole get your life back thing.

This is while she was ill?

No before.

Before?

She was ill. And I went through quite a lot of, I suppose guilt, I spent hours saying the same to my husband, ‘Oh do you think I ought to be stopping now?’ and a lot of my friends were saying to me, ‘You really ought to get back to normal now and it’s time for you to have time, the two of you to be able to go out for dinner and, and I think it’s time you need to stop breastfeeding now and get her onto a bottle and, you know, off so anyone can feed her’ and I think having been through what I’ve been through just you really ought just to do what suits you, suits her, I have a very nice couple of hours with her in the evenings and my husband’s quite happy we just kind of, you know, the three of us are quite happy together and if we go out for dinner then well go out for dinner that little bit later and I think I would, if we have another child which hopefully we will, I will breastfeed from the start and continue to breastfeed as and when it suits us so that we can get her onto a bottle and wean her as we have with our little girl at one, maybe without the extreme three months [laughs] in-between then well have had a very, very good experience really. Weve had, I’ve had a good experience feeding her. As I say three months of not the most, not the easiest time in-between but we got through it and with a lot of help and with a lot of encouragement and shes breastfeeding, shes drinking from a cup, shes semi-weaned and shes on her way to being very healthy, and she is very healthy now, so I think anybody out there who’s child needs to go through surgery and is breastfeeding to start with, if you can keep it up it, it helps you, it’s, in my view, really good for them, and just it also gives you the options at the end that it’s nice, the comfort of being together and, as I say, weve managed to breastfeed and bottle feed and wean all at the end of a fairly harrowing three months, if you can, if you can go through it, it really is worth it and you come out the other side.

Was your daughter weaned before you became pregnant with your son?

Yes shed lost, she came off me at a year, I was devastated after a year. She didn’t want me on her first birthday she just said, ‘No’ just kept pushing it away. I said, ‘no you can have more ‘no’ and she just kept pushing away, so I pushed, I mean I pushed it at, at the ten months she didn’t really want it but I kept pushing and pushing, but by her birthday no, she just said, ‘No’, I said, ‘please, I need it’ but no she didn’t want me at all. But I’m hoping that hell go a little bit longer than a year, if he gives up at ten months I’m going to be devastated because I need it.

How did you deal with her rejecting you at a year?

It was really upsetting, really upsetting, I was, because it’s that moment of special time where you look into each other eyes and you just have that second it’s lovely. I’d have it twelve times it wasn’t so bad, if I wasn’t so sick in my pregnancies I’d have it twelve times, I love it. It’s just a really lovely feeling no one can take, no one can give it to you, no one can take it way from you it’s lovely, it does hurt, but because I know I could have more it wasn’t an end thing I knew I could have more children so it wasn’t, although it hurt at the time I knew I could go on and have more children and I knew that it was best for her to give up like she did because I’d heard of a lot people that were three still trying to get them to wean so, and I didn’t want to do it that far. So I mean although it was upsetting I knew that I could have more children and I knew that it was best for her, do you get my meaning?