I was very unhappy with Western culture, and when I talk to people in self-help groups, I very often find that a lot of the attitudes that I talk about, I’ve said about, you know wanting to get ahead and have a conventional family life and everything. Everyones got to own car, and all this kind of stuff is just something that I collectively despaired of with other depressed people, that it’s that kind of social brutalisation, almost, and all the expectations. The expectations you have as well, or other people have of you. That really’ you can’t cut yourself off from them because they exist but you can assert your right to be different. Yes, but anyway I’m getting far too philosophical now, I think.

And it was quite nice realising that these people did suffer from depression, and yet they were very intelligent and sensitive people. And you know, theres obviously no contradiction between the things but in fact, you know, you spend all that time feeling, looking at other people and I’ve felt I was worse than, you know, I felt I was. and I felt I was missing something. I didn’t have something that the rest of the human race had. But in fact, it turned out almost to be the opposite. That in fact, you know we have a certain sensitivity, I think, being depressed maybe.

I’ve also, because I’ve got to that low point I think, one thing I sometimes mention to people is that I kind of reconciled myself with the possibility that my life might be absolutely dreadful. I might have a really horrible life, and die having fulfilled none of my ambitions. And you know, you might think that might be gloomy but I think somehow being able to accept that, it was good because then anything positive is a bonus. So anyway, I’ve gone through that period of, that’s probably it.

Yes, the universe is pointless and the only meaning comes from us. Somebody in [self-help group] once wrote that depression was his own idiosyncratic response to living in a flawed world, I think. I thought that was quite a difficult concept to get across to people, but I think it’s important. And you know, it’s a question of whether you can…. what you do, in the face of that universal meaninglessness, I think…. I learned that, you know, were not perfect. Were fallible human beings. That life isn’t fair, as was pointed out to me, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t try to make life fair when we possibly can. And I learned that you can go very, very low. I learned, I suppose, I learned what was important. What I was missing then, I’ve now subsequently rediscovered, or discovered for the first time, really, because I’d never had it in the first place.

What’s important?

It’s important to be good to each other, and be compassionate to each other, and it’s important to let yourself have a good time and look after yourself.

Because when I’m depressed I’ I wasn’t able to do anything about it, really. I just felt overwhelmed by it. And so you do have to just tackle the bit that you can get a grip on, and it might be something very small. And with my depression, when I was feeling very low, I would, I did decide to just concentrate on small things; going for a walk, baking some bread, you know pottering around in the garden. Just trying to get through day to day, I think, was how I came out of the suicide attempt. And that lasted a long, long time, really and I don’t think it can be rushed, that recuperation really’

And then I spent some time working on a farm, actually, which was quite good because there was the exercise and the fresh air, and there was also the camaraderie of other people who thought it was a crap job as well. So, you know. not doing anything too demanding.

It might almost seem common sense to people that if you distract yourself from some of these things, it might give a bit of relief. That actually in the long term, if you keep doing it, it’s a good way of slowly coming out of depression. But yes, it might seem common sense, but it’s not what you feel like doing all the time, not at all.

I stopped myself from doing things because I didn’t think there was any point in doing it, and because I was afraid that I might get embarrassed about something. And I realised that. you know there were only so many opportunities you’re presented with in life, and therefore you have to seize the day and try and take those opportunities, so long as they’re not overwhelming. And that’s how come I ended up, you know doing, going out and meeting some friends who were interested in the same kinds of things I was. And beginning to develop a bit. a bit more of a social life, a bit more of a normal social life, I think’

And I also got in touch with [self-help organisation]. In fact I had been a member of [self-help organisation] for a few years earlier, and I got the newsletter which had a lot of personal experiences in, which I found very interesting and thought provoking. It did manage to make sense of what I’d been through, put it into context as it were. And of course, you get a lot of different views there. I mean this was the ’90s before people started really thinking of depression as a biological illness, probably. And you know, there were some interesting ideas there about cognitive therapy as well, and interesting ideas about the way depression related to society and all kinds of things like that, which I found quite stimulating.

But actually, probably one of the most important things for me that came out of working for [self-help group] is I got interested in the subject of depression for it’s own sake and I started looking at research myself and trying to . I was looking at academic research, I used to go to the British Library and the University of East London and look through journals there. And that made a lot of sense to me. I understood, because I’ve got a background in maths, I can understand all the statistics and basically I found a lot of useful information, for example to do with what happens if you tend to ruminate and things. And I had a very strong tendency to spend. use the time that I had by myself to look inwards and I realised that by doing that and concentrating on the faults, that was actually making me more pessimistic.

I was actually a Christian, I’m not a Christian any more, I sort of went through a crisis of faith a few years afterwards which, again is quite, is quite relevant, I think quite relevant to depression.

In what sense?

Well, Christianity has got some quite powerful symbols in it about redemption and death and somebody dying for your sins. And quite a strong feeling of sin, actually, of a feeling of blame or some, whether you can use the word ‘stigma’ in that context that attaches to somebody who’s, who’s somehow failed. But it also, you know, it’s got a positive aspect to it as well, it’s got the idea that one should be able to be guided by Gods will if one reflects on it and reads on it and such like. And some people are supposed to be called by God, but I never felt that way you know, and I never really had this so-called personal relationship with Jesus that many, you know fervent Christians talk about.

I mean I had a conflict in my mind between science, which I felt I understood pretty well, and the Bible, and I was always trying to reconcile them. This is something I was doing, you know even as a kid, you know from the age of 11. And from the age of 11 and, ultimately, it went down to the side of being a heathen, and not really worrying about being damned, because I don’t even believe in things like sin any more. I find them to be very. to be a very exacting kind of religion’

I felt more, I didn’t seem to be able to enjoy any of the things that I tried at first, and I was just feeling very low and very lonely, needy. I was aware I needed something, I wasn’t quite sure what and I was, I think, probably about 4 or 5 months after starting my first year, I did become very depressed, actually, and just took to moping around.

I think people could tell from just the way I was looking, the way I, not looking after myself, the fact that I spoke in a low monotone. The, my posture, I tended to stoop and just looked generally dishevelled and not at all, not really able to cope, actually, quite despairing.

Despairing of being able to do something for myself, despairing of ever being anything myself, despairing of being normal which, you know partly, I would like to.

I eventually got put on a waiting list for the local clinical psychology team and they have a very interesting approach, which years later, I found out is called ‘systemic consultation… in practice it was. I was sitting in a room with not one therapist but 3 therapists or at least 2 therapists, and somebody in training.

And I was also welcome to bring along other people, friends and my brother on one occasion. And that had the idea of unlike the private therapist, I didn’t feel there was any danger that she might. that they might be keeping me for longer than I needed, or giving me more attention than I needed.

I felt like they could see that I was a person in need, and I needed to come and talk things through. And, basically, they made an effort to try and understand me, and try to see things from my point of view, and slowly’ possibly to put a more positive spin on it. They tended to use a few cognitive techniques.

In cognitive therapy you’re given homework to do. I wasn’t, but they did make suggestions about things I might concentrate on. And I think, by that stage, by 1995, I had put a lot of it together for myself and I really needed a bit more help getting reassurance that I was getting there, and help in putting the pieces together. In trying to develop my social skills a bit more, and maybe get out more, and just try a few things that were a bit more challenging, and I think they were quite encouraging, really.

They’ it didn’t. it wasn’t anything magical this time. I wasn’t expecting them to be able to take what I’ve given them, and come up with a prescription in a sense, a cure. I think they focused on the real world a lot more, rather than some of the previous experiences I’d had where it was all talking about the past and my feelings and my sensation of being adrift and very miserable and talking about the depression itself.

I seemed to be concentrating on the big things, really, almost possibly as a distraction from myself. But I felt like, again my own needs weren’t that important, really. If somebody had some kind of emotional problem my attitude was probably that it’s not a real problem, it’s not the same problem as people starving in the Third World, and that’s kind of how I felt about myself. I felt okay, I’m not enjoying life a lot, I find most of it very boring, possibly that’s because I’m quite bright, and I don’t have that much to fill up my time or that much stimulation. But it was a kind of gradual slide from about the age of 10, I think, into something that was depression. I was about, I was standing in a dinner queue at school once, on my own, and somebody comes up behind me and he said, ‘You know, you radiate depression. Which was, at the age of 13, was quite [laughing]’ It was also a funny turn of phrase and I think I probably laughed actually, but somehow I’d picked up that something was wrong.