I also like to ask people historically about how their sleep has changed. So what did you say was your optimum time for sleep? If you had a perfect night, how long would you sleep for? How many hours do you think would suit you?

Probably eight hours.

Where does that come from, that eight hours?

Well its probably when I was physically enabled again through like I think particularly for my age I am physically more, perhaps more robust thank goodness, but more active.

Okay.

And I think getting physically tired.

Written only’
Cutting that grass for example and keeping that garden under control is my biggest problem in life at the moment. it’s also the biggest stimulus and probably accounts for you know, being relatively active physically.

Because you are doing the garden?

So I am curious why people choose a particular length of time which they think is appropriate. Is eight hours something that you feel that you need and if so what do you base that on?

No I could adapt to much less than that.

Oh okay?

I think it’s convenient time wise. I think it’s good for me physically. I don’t usually need it mentally inasmuch, as I even though I know I can wake up feeling even physically tired, not very often. I don’t usually wake up feeling mentally tired. Because it is very easily said in my stage now for me to misjudge mentally tired with being depressed.

How was your sleep then when you were working full time?

I don’t know. I don’t seem to have too many sleep problems really. No I think it was more or less just the same.

Exactly the same yes. So have you noticed any change at all in how you’ve slept as you got older apart from as you say needing to sleep during the day. Have you noticed any change in your sleep at all?

Well I never used to wake up in the middle of the night like I do now. But I believe older people don’t need so much sleep.

Right is that something you’ve heard, older people don’t need so much sleep?

Or I have read it a lot and I think oh well this must be true, people do wake up in the night, they don’t need it. But I’d love to sleep in. Yes.

So if I could say to you have a perfect night’s sleep what would that be for you?

To sleep from 10 oclock till seven.

Okay so right the way through then?

Hm.

And that’s nine hours?

Yes. May be that’s too high an expectation.

No it depends really what you base it on. Where do you get the idea of the nine hours from?

Well by the time 10 oclock comes I’m absolutely shattered. I just need nothing but my bed. Sometimes I am so tired I can hardly take my clothes off. So I must go at a fair old lick most of the day. But 7 – 7.30 seems to be a civilised time to get up and get ready for the day.

it’s not about, is that a sleep you have ever had, nine hours right the way through?

I don’t know if I’ve ever done that.

Okay and it’s not about what you’ve heard. Have you heard what a good night’s sleep might be?

Yes I’ve heard a good night’s sleep is probably eight hours.

I’m just interested in where people, why people think, I ask them that question well where does that come from? There seems to be a variety of you have given me a good time to go to bed and a good time to get up?

Yes, that’s really what I’m talking about, and what happens in between you know, how many hours or whatever is not really that important. it’s just that I need to go to bed at ten. Seven oclock seems to be a reasonable time to get up.

I go upstairsI have my supper really early because I am always trying to lose weight and I am under a nutritionist which is excellent. She said eat early. So I have my supper as early as five oclock and then try not to eat much more after that. I have given up alcohol for Lent. So far I have not slipped.

Well done.

Which is not too badI thought I would find it difficult. So I am pleased about that and I have, at odd times when my son comes in with his problems, I think goodness I could do with a drink tonight, but I haven’t.

So then do you find giving up the alcohol has made any difference to your sleep?

Well I am wondering. I was reading about sleep in the newspaper yesterday and it says that a woman who was detoxing without alcohol for a month and she felt she was sleeping more soundly, but to be honest I don’t really think it has made much difference.

No difference to you?

I don’t think it has no. I have been sleeping very well the last sort of ten days.

So if I said to you tonight you will have a perfect night’s sleep can you describe what that might be?

Going to sleep without a struggle and waking up knowing that I haven’t been awake earlier in the night.

So sleep right the way through?

Yes.

And is there a time period when it would take place a length it would be?

It takes me by surprise, like this morning.

What do you mean by that then?

I was surprised when it was as late as quarter to six that I looked at the clock.

So a perfect night’s sleep would take you by surprise?

Sleeping uninterruptedly. Because even waking up, I have gone, you know, a lot of the times I go back to sleep again. I suppose occasionally something has woken us up, but that would be far less often then we have woken ourselves up. The other thing we are aware of, is that if one gets up and goes to the loo, the other one’s immediately awake. So we’re not sleeping very deeply some of the time.

What would your perfect length of sleep be?

Well I am aware that you need at least two hours in a block for quality sleep.

Oh right. Where did you hear that from?

don’t know. I have known it for years. I must have read it in a few places. But you know, once you’re properly asleep it’s a two hour slot that is actually doing you any good, so I suppose subconsciously I don’t care if I’ve had at least two hours sleep.

So you would be quite happy, a perfect night would be if it was a good deep sleep to be two hours. Is that what you mean?

Yes. If it wasn’t every night. I am sure I need more than that on a more regular basis.

What about if you go away and there is a duvet?

Oh I do cope with it no problem, you know, no problem, but I just prefer. I am a bit like the late Winston Churchill I confess I do have magazines, paper work, all sorts on my bed because it is a double bed.

So you spread all that around while you are working?

So they are all spread around on my bed. So it is not tidy.

So you go to sleep with that lot on you?

Yes. I sleep on one side and on the other side I have got papers and the magazines and the book and various bits and bobs. And then the thing is ready to do in the morning when I wake up.

Ah. And they don’t fall off?

In fact it is my office. A bedroom office. The do fall off sometimes and you wake in the night like crash something has fallen off.

So you sleep on that same side?

Yes. I was reading Joan Bakewell sleeps in the middle of her double bed.

And you sleep on one side?

I sleep on one side because I have always slept on that side you know, in the marital bed and wherever I sleep I sleep on a particular side.

Okay that is interesting. You have got all sorts of fun going on there.

A bit eccentric to say the least.

And any special pillows do you have?

Yes. I am quite keen on my pillows yes. I did buy some really nice pillows about six months ago and so I do change those because of this dust mite problem. So I have two pillows, really good pillows and I was reading this article that pillows are important too aren’t they.

Yes, yes, they are. Do you take them away with you if you go away?

No I don’t. Well I suppose I have done occasionally yes, yes. But I am not that neurotic. I think Prince Charles does.

Is it something you talk about with friends? You mentioned a colleague was telling you about how to relax. Is sleep something that ever comes up in your conversation, say people talk to you about it or do you talk to them or

Not really, no. I suppose as you say, I suppose I must have mentioned it occasionally. I think it probably was just general, I wouldn’t say it is in my conversation. If anyone was talking and the conversation got around into that sort of area I suppose I would probably say in passing ‘well I don’t sleep very well, but then move on to the next thing. Because as I’ve probably said a dozen times already it’s not that important to me.

Yes.

it’s not something that concerns me to that extent, no.

So you discussed the fact that you weren’t sleeping?

Yes, yes. And I think some of them, said no I don’t sleep very well either my dear. It is age.

That wasn’t what you wanted to hear?

So there was no sympathy there I thought.

It is interesting you saying that that you think it might be linked to age. That is quite a common thing that people say. So sleep is something you talk generally now with friends or family?

No. I have a friend I ring up every morning at quarter past eight. She still lives in Birmingham. We have been friends for sixty something years. And I say ‘how are you doing’ and she will say ‘awful. She will probably use an expletive as well. ‘How are you doing’, ‘oh you know, the same. Okay right. We have set out day out before us on the phone you know and then sometimes I will ring her and she says ‘oh I have been awake since four’ and sometimes she will say ‘I had a good night, I didn’t wake, you have woken me up. The phone has woken me up and I feel guilty but soand I think well this is the pattern of everybody you know, it probably is. don’t worry about it. It is just another stage of life.

It comes with getting older and all this sort of thing?

Yes.