I think my husband definitely wanted to have a ter-, I think he understood before – I just kept clutching at straws, thinking,Well, maybe wve misunderstood them. Maybe thers something wrong, maybe they can do something And, you know, I think my husband was a lot more – a lot less emotional about it all, and listened to what they said and understood it, instead of listening to what they said and trying to interpret it differently which is what I did.

So anyway then we went back to the see the – we went back to the north London hospital then, and saw the other consultant. We decided we wouldt go back the following week to the fetal medicine unit. I think with hindsight I wish d taken longer to reach the decision, and I wish that I had have gone back.

What difference would that have made to you, do you think?

I just think it would have helped me to have sort of come to terms with it better before it happened, rather than just – it was all just such a rollercoaster, and it was such a – it was all so quick. I never really had a chance to think about any of it until afterwards.

And then you spend months with all the what ifs? And at that point thers nobody around whs knowledgeable to talk to, because yove been filed away and it’s all sort of closed from their perspective. So thas, you know, you have all these questions, and thers nobody there to answer them.

You mentioned earlier about the difference between your experiences of miscarriage?

Yeah, it was totally different, totally different. If d have been treated the way I was at the time I had my miscarriage to the time – it was, it’s like night and day, completely different. Everybods much more caring, you know, Are you all right? Is there anything I can do? Can I help you you know. But nobody even wants to say hello to you when yore having a termination.

Why do you think people reacted so differently?

I suppose it’s easier for them to cope with it. And I also think as well that people are judgemental, and they just assume, because it has the label of termination, that you dot want to have the baby, and that you dot want it. They just assume yore having an abortion, I suppose. Thas very much the way that I felt, particularly in the delivery suite. The anaesthetist in particular was very offhand.

What did he say?

Well, you know, because obviously they, I suppose they paged him to come up and do an epidural. And you could really see him sort of thinking, you know – he really sort of had the attitude like, "Oh God, m coming to do an epidural for a termination?" You know, like I wast even having a baby.

I think, you know, thas the other thing, is your memories. it’s sort of like when you have a child thas sort of, is growing up, you have memories. You know, yove got like birthdays and teachers – good and bad, and all the rest of it. And I think that all the memories of your, you know, the baby that yove lost is just such a tiny little snapshot.

it’s all so negative, and it’s all the health care people that you had around you at the time are the memories that you have of your baby. And it’s just very important the way that they behave. And that they understand that you are having a baby, and not getting rid of a problem.

Yeah, thas the thing there all focusing o how to make it an easy process in terms of getting rid of the pain, and all that sort of thing, put you in a nice room, completely ignoring the real issue – and that is that yore having a baby thas, that yore not going to take home, and that yore not ever going to do anything for, except getting rid of them. it’s so awful. When you really love it.

I think my husband was quite happy with the speed of it all, because it meant, for him it was less emotional to do it all that way, but I would have just liked to have gone home and cried for three days and then come in and done it – to have sort of grieved, you know? Well, not grieved – to have come to, to have accepted it, you know? It was like being in a film, you know. You dot, you didt really feel like it was happening to you.

I think before I lost my son, I think, you know, if d have got, I probably would – I know my husband would still react the same way now – but I probably would have been more black and white, as he is, whereas now I dot think I would be. I think d be much more – you know, sometimes I see people wheeling children around, who are disabled or whatever, you can get the big sort of like oversized prams, you know, for when there sort of five or six.

And I just sort of think that I shouldt have done what I did to my son. Then as [husband] said, he wouldt have been like that. He would have been completely different to that. He wouldt have communicated or anything.

And that feeling that you wish you hadt done it, thas not one consistent feeling, is it?

No, ve just got a whole mix of feeling. You know, in my heart of hearts I know I did the right thing, but I really, really love him, and that from a selfish perspective I would have liked to have, you know, have had him, but I know it wouldt have been, it would have been awful for him.

I think losing my son made all of the antenatal screening a lot less black and white. You know, I think – you know, had I not had problems and someone had come and said,Well, we think you ought to have an amniocentesi, d have gone,Ye. And if They’re have said,Oh, it’s Dow, I probably would have gone, "Oh okay, you know. Les have a termination".

But after losing [son] I think it’s a lot less – you know, I really did think seriously about whether I wanted to have any tests at all. And yet with my husband, it was the opposite with him. He was even more wanting the tests, and wanting information, and wanting to know, and I think possibly more from a reassurance side of things, whereas I went the other way, and just sort of like,Well, I dot want to know if thers a problem Whereas he wanted the evidence to prove that there wast a problem, if you see what I mean. So I suppose different people have different reactions to it.

And do you feel it’s made you feel differently about screening? How has it changed your feelings?

Well, I think you realise it’s there for a reason, instead of just being one of the things you do as part of the routine of being pregnant, without really paying a lot of attention to it at all. I think it, I mean, I think screening is a good thing. The only problem with screening is it almost gives you more questions than answers, if there is a problem. So it helps you work out that thers a problem, but, you know, one small problem then becomes one massive problem, and there aret any answers to that.

And then suddenly it all comes back to you and I dot, I wast ready for that. You know, you just think that screening is going to give you a yes/ no, and you know, nothing can prepare you for the magnitude of the problem, and the fact that it ist just a straightforward yes or no.

We were just in the waiting room. But I mean, we didt know at that point that there were any problems, so I mean we sort of said to each other,Well, I hope everythins oka, you know, because – and my husband just sort of went, "Oh yeah, yeah", because hs a bit, sort of – I used to be a nurse, so yeah, I guess I sort of clicked a bit more than he did, you know?

And I was really worried when I was in the waiting room, and I would have rather that they had said that they thought that there was a problem, but they weret sure, and that they were going to get somebody else to come and have a look at it, and that they were open and honest with what they were going to do. Because it, you know, all – I just spent fifteen, twenty minutes really, really worried.

And how far had they talked to you during that first scan?

Well, They’re talked quite a lot, you know, to me in terms of the fibroids, you know. We must have spent at least half the time on the fibroids, you know, and as they went through all the measurements, and things like that they, you know, they were sort of talking.

They showed me his heart, and his kidney, and, you know, his spine and his legs and all that sort of thing. And then when they got to the head they sort of were, a bit sort of like,Oh come an – because the other one was sort of writing things down, you know, while one of them did the scan, and then we they got to his head, you know, they were sort of like,Look a – you knowOoh, look at thi, you know – only like [whispering]Ooh, look at thi – and to each other, but not to us.

They didt tell us there were any problems. They didt say the head was slightly large, or anything. As I say they asked again quite a lot of detail about dates, and were we really sure, and that sort of thing. In fact what they actually said was his legs were quite short in comparison to the size of his head. And I remember my husband saying, "Well ve got quite short legs".

But they didt just come out and ask properly, or say anything, that they thought – and they must have known, because if it’s so obvious, you know that thers a lemon shaped head, and things like that, I think they should have just said at that point and then just taken us off to a, I dot know, a side room or something, and given us a cup of tea, and waited for the next person to come and look in more detail.

And she asked us if we wanted some phot-, in fact no, they didt ask us if we wanted photographs, actually. And thas my one regret, is that I havet got any scan photos.

From that 20 week scan?

Because for all my other children I have. And you know how you put the money on the machine when you go in, because you have to pay for them. You know, we normally get sort of like, I dot know, three or four photos, one for us and one for my parents who live quite a way away, one for [husbans] parents – and I really wanted the photos, but I was just too embarrassed to ask for them.

So you knew at the time that you wanted one, but you just couldt ask?

Yeah, I just sort of feel, I dot know, it’s just like it, they were all so busy doing other things, you know. Because it’s almost like as soon as they recognised that there was a problem with the baby, it wast a baby any more, for them. It was a problem. And it’s sort of like they passed, just passed that assumption onto us as well, that we wouldt be interested in it as a baby either.

In my heart of hearts I knew I had to do it, but if d have had all of that extra information given to me about what was involved in a termination, before d made the decision to have a termination, I think it would have placed even more guilt on me, and I dot think d have been able to do it, and then you know, my husband obviously would have still wanted to have gone ahead with it, but – do you see what I mean?

I think it’s better to go through the details, the minutiae of how the termination will occur and what will happen, and how yoll feel and how yoll be treated and things, once yove made the decision to have the termination. Because you can always change your mind after yove made the decision to have the termination, if after yove heard that you dot want to go through with it.

But I dot think the actual mechanics of having a termination should be influential to the decision as to whether you keep or you dot keep your baby, if you see what I mean. I think you just have to incrementally – you know, it’s a lot of new information to take on and I think you have to – you cat just overload people with it, I think you need – it’s almost like you need a little project plan in terms of what you need to go through, and do things.

Because when yore getting all that information, your mind is just totally, yore all over the place. Yore completely unstructured and I think you need people there to – not guide you in terms of influence your decision but guide you, to keep you, to guide you in a structured way through the decision-making process, if you see what I mean. Other-, because when, after – not that you notice it at the time, but I think afterwards, when you mull over about it for years, you do start to pick all the little gaps, and think,Well, if d have done that the and – do you see what I mean? Whereas if somebody had gone at it in a much more methodical and structured way, it would have been better.

What particular points would you have liked more structure around? I mean, you said the period where you might have waited for another scan would have been one possibility? Are there other areas where you think things weret structured enough?

I just – I think it’s just more in terms of the speed that it all happened at, and just yore so overloaded with information, and everybods always trying to move you on to the next decision, and the next decision, without really ever giving you any time to think about what yove just agreed to, and the current decision. Because I guess they understand everything thas involved, so they just gloss over things.