And, and I think like one of the things that I really struggled with is that everyone tries to be very well-meaning, and everyone tries to , yeah, be there for you. As they would, you know. But actually, it’s – very rarely is it very helpful [laugh]. And the best thing you can do is just be there, and hold the tissues, and not say anything, other than “Yeah, it’s really awful. Yeah, that does – it is really awful.” [Laugh]. Because people try and relate it to something that’s happened to them.

And I had lots of people saying “You need to get back to work. You need to distract yourself.” “You need to – yeah, it is really bad, but at least you’ve got [my son].” Yes, I’m very thankful that I have [my son], but – and I’ve now learned to say, “Well which one of your children could you live without? Would the other one be enough for, that if you lost one, it wouldn’t matter anymore?” [Laugh]. But at the time, you just sort of sit there thinking ‘well no, no, no – Henry was alive, he was a person, and he needs to be validated. And by the fact that people around you try and gloss over it – because it is such an awkward conversation, no one knows what to say to you. But the fact that they try and dismiss it, or dismiss your feelings, makes you feel that you’re just – yeah, making a mountain out of a molehill and should just snap out of it, and carry on. Which is what I tried to do. I went back to work after five weeks, and I sat crying at my laptop for six months, really. And luckily, work are amazing, and were very supportive. And just pretended that they didn’t notice that I was crying and not doing anything. And, you know, they were lovely.

David: And Elaine – Then we had to get back to normality. I think I went back to work, just a week later. Or a few days later. Was that a week? And Elaine went back to what she did. And that was it. And I remember going back to work. And they’re very good, work. And I was working for [company name] at the time. And they sent flowers. You know, card of condolence. Which was lovely of them. [dealing with tissues] I was at work. My first day at work. And I remember, I went to my desk. And I was an IT analyst there, we had a team of analysts. And there was the guy, senior guy, who must have been then as old as I am now – about 60.

Elaine: [laughing]

David: Senior guy. And he said to me – I sat down and was getting my – trying to catch up with my emails. He said to me, “Are you over it yet?” And I thought – I thought [laugh] – If I hadn’t have restrained myself, I probably would have smacked – done something I regretted.

David: Like my football team had just lost the cup final, “Are you over it yet?” And I looked at him and I said, “You don’t know what you’re talking about.” And I just went out for a coffee. If I’d stayed there, I would have – as I said – done something I would have regretted.

But there was a lot of other people who were sympathetic, but this guy was lucky he didn’t lose a few teeth. But it would have been worth it – if I’d have lost my job, it would have been worth it. But I couldn’t believe someone’s insensitivity. I think it took someone else to actually tell him what happened.

But I’m not sure if he did know what happened, I can’t believe – And he did apologise, but that sticks with me. That one thing sticks with me, about work.

You lose so many friends. You absolutely lose so many friends.

I can’t tell you how many friends I’ve lost. Had a massive friend, friend base. Like easily I would meet up with people, ten or ten people, like a weekend, or go out for lunches and stuff like that. This happens, no one contacts you. Whether it be because they don’t know what to say to you?

Yeah.

Or, or they’re – they’re just a bit like, like ‘ooh, I don’t want to upset them’, or something like that. But at the end of the day, who cares? If they’re your friend, just – all you’ve got to do is text once, and just say ‘I’m thinking of you. Do you know? Or a couple of months later, say like ‘I’m still thinking of you’, and stuff like that.

But people don’t. And then you end up really re-evaluating the people in your life. Because you think well, what’s important? And some people who you just walk past and go “You’re alright?” And you’re not really good friends with anyway, but you make that extra effort because you think you should, you don’t. Because you think ‘ooh, I’m not wasting my life, which is so precious and important, in trying to give you energy that you don’t need – because you’re not there for me, don’t need to be there for you, let’s just leave it at that. And that happened with so many people. People that I thought were best friends, and really close, you know? And would never – wouldn’t even come to see me. Wouldn’t even ring me. Hadn’t even rang me up within months. People that I worked with – because I had to go straight back to work – didn’t come up to me, within two months of me having to go there on a daily basis, and go to me, “What happened?” Do you know what I mean? Like, “How are you doing?” You know? They all just ignore you, flat out.

Michelle: And then to be honest, you know – we had some really good friends that came round and talked to us. Our friends who’d had their own miscarriages were brilliant. They came and sat with us.

Iain: Well

Michelle: One of my friends came in, and just went straight to you, and gave you a gift, and asked how you were.

Iain: Yeah. Mmm.

Michelle: Which I thought was brilliant.

Iain: We had a massive amount of support.

On the other hand – you know, we also had a lot of people tell us their own stories. It was [laughing] not what we expected, was it. But we became a magnet for other people who’d suffered, you know? So, just found myself listening to other people’s stories for the next few weeks, didn’t we. There was so many people came to visit us, but then they’d never shared their own story, so there they were telling [laughing] – And sometimes you felt like, you know, did they want to hear our story? But it was more like – actually, you realise it’s – You realise that, you know, being emotional about it is okay.

Because I think going through something like that – my Mum didn’t get it, she’d never lost a baby at that age. My husband tried as far as he could to get it. My sister didn’t get it. Nobody got it. The only people who got it, as far as I was concerned at that time, were people who’d been through it, had lost a baby either at term or certainly beyond twenty weeks.

You know, whereas my Mum and my sister and my friends wanted to know – they wanted to help, and they wanted to support, but they didn’t know what questions to ask, they didn’t know – Well, and also sometimes I didn’t want to talk about them. I just wanted them to get it. I wanted them to read my mind. Whereas the women that had been through it, could read my mind because they’d been there, done it. You know? Might be a completely different reason why they lost. But they knew what it was like to be having conversations like that with NHS professionals, which you don’t want to be doing.

Some people were very sensitive toward our situation, when they found out they were pregnant. Obviously we’re all late twenties, early thirties, all the people we hang around with, so everyone’s having kids. And quite a few people found out they were pregnant, and some people were really sensitive, and came over and they would sit us down and say, you know, “This is going to be hard, but we wanted to tell you ourselves.” And some people weren’t so sensitive. And I found that really tough, you know, when people were insensitive towards what had happened.

I still struggle like with that now. I don’t like pregnancy announcements when it comes from nowhere. You know, like I like – I like to be alone, when I find out. Because sometimes my reaction might be to burst into tears.

So, telling me like one on one is – it’s better than, you know, finding out another way.

I had Facebook, and I had to delete everybody who was pregnant. Or had just had a baby. Or was a grandmother who’d just had a grandkid. Like I just had to get rid of it all, because I couldn’t – I just couldn’t cope with having it pop up, like unexpectedly on me. It just felt like someone was kicking me in the stomach, whenever I’d hear about – you know – someone having a baby. And all I could think was why my baby? You know? Why is everybody else having a baby, but my baby died? Like it, it just felt so cruel. And just unfair. It still feels like that now. Like I still feel like it, like it’s unfair. But I’ve come to terms with it a bit more. But in the early days, that was rough. I didn’t like going out. Just I didn’t know if I’d bump into someone who was pregnant, or see someone with a newborn. Boys were not as bad, but girls I couldn’t – couldn’t deal with it at all.

So I sort of – I lost a lot of confidence, even just going out. Like going out anywhere was like a chore. Like at first I needed someone with me all the time. I just didn’t want to be alone. So it took quite a long time like for me to build up the confidence even just to go out. Even going to the GP was tough at first. But eventually it got better. I’m still not that – . I don’t think I’m back to a hundred percent where I was before she died.

Like I’m not keen on big crowds. And I find it easier to be around people who already know.

I just needed to talk. And a friend, very good friend of mine who happens to be a midwife was expecting a baby. Probably – He was born a fortnight before I lost the twins. So I’d not seen him before I lost the twins. I was in hospital when she had him. And I spoke to her. And she was coming round, because her parents lived near mine. So she was in the area. And she said she’d like to come and see me. You know, but she said, “I’ll come on my own.” I said, “No.” I said, “Please will you bring little one?” And she’s like, “Really?” I said, “Yeah.” And without saying to her, ‘I need to see him, please do bring him’, I – you know – I sort of danced around it a bit and said, “I’d really like -.” And I did want to see the baby.

And I don’t think – Most people I’ve spoken to about this have not really got it. I don’t think even my Mum really got this. She says I’m brave, but she doesn’t really get that I needed to hold another baby, to know that I could [laugh].

Just to know that I wasn’t going to break down every time I saw a baby. And actually, I did. She came, he was beautiful, he was only two, three weeks old. And I held the baby, and I was genuinely – in my heart, I knew I was genuinely pleased for her. It was her third. Genuinely pleased for her beautiful baby. I still could be happy for somebody else, and not let my distress and upset cloud my emotions for other people. That was my problem, my issue, my whatever was going on. It didn’t stop me being happy for somebody else. That was really – again, something I didn’t – you know – I wasn’t expecting. But, that separation of what’s happening to other people and what’s happened to me, I was quite keen that I didn’t want to be miserable or feel miserable about other people’s circumstances just because of what I was going through. So, I. You know, I told her to “Please bring baby.” And she did. And, yeah. I held him. I think I probably broke down afterwards, after she’d gone. And my Mum picked me up, but – caught me, picked me up.